The Independent Revenues & Benefits Monday Discussion Group was back on 8 September, with Malcolm Gardner welcoming everyone after the summer break. Smiles all round, though the mood paused for a moment as Malcolm paid tribute to Leigh Barber from NEC, who recently passed away after a long battle with cancer. Leigh’s determination and his blog through his illness were remembered warmly.

Conference chatter

Attention quickly turned to the IRRV Annual Conference in October. The group will be on stand 61, with Bob Wagstaff promising to bring beer, and Rachel, John Gibbs and Kevin Stewart joining in across the event. Kevin joked about whether Bob would also be bringing bees — “just to add a sting in the tail.”

Pat McFadden takes over at Work and Pensions

The cabinet reshuffle dominated the agenda. Pat McFadden is now Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (with skills bolted onto the title).

Robert Fox called it an “interesting appointment” but doubted how much could actually be delivered.
Bob Wagstaff was blunt: he’d hoped for more from Liz Kendall but felt she had looked “a bit of a Tory.” McFadden, he said, is known as an enforcer, “but it depends what he wants to enforce.”
Kirsty Brooksmith admitted she had “no idea” what direction McFadden might take, given the mixed signals coming out of government.
Naomi Armstrong agreed, noting that the DWP has been weighed down for years by issues like housing benefit, pension credit, and supported housing. “It’s all a bit early to say,” she concluded.
Paul Howarth thought the bigger story was Starmer’s lack of faith in Kendall: “She wasn’t really visible. McFadden, at least, is used to bringing people together across departments — whether that helps here, we’ll see.”

Bob reflected that welfare reform always ends up as tinkering at the edges. “It needs a fundamental shake-up,” he said, but doubted this government would deliver one.

Steve Reed at Housing and Communities

The other appointment under discussion was Steve Reed at Housing and Communities.

Kevin Stewart thought the priority will be housing delivery rather than local government reorganisation.
Paul Howarth pointed out that Jim McMahon, who had been leading on reorganisation, was sacked — which could mean a slowdown. “Reed’s priority is clearly housing. It’s build, build, build.”
Robert Fox defended the move towards larger unitaries: “In the long run they do deliver more joined-up services.”
Kirsty Brooksmith, speaking from her North Yorkshire experience, said the reality has been messy: “Service quality has gone down. Decisions are made in Northallerton with little feel for Scarborough.” She gave the example of being sent three separate letters about bin day changes — “a waste of money and it’s infuriated me.”
Naomi Armstrong, facing a merry-go-round of unitary options in Cambridgeshire, admitted “we haven’t got a clue” where things are heading.

Housing benefit subsidy – an old problem still unsolved

The group then turned to the thorny issue of housing benefit subsidy and supported accommodation.

Naomi Armstrong was clear: the current penalties on councils are “indefensible,” particularly when charities provide high-quality services at fair rents.
Bob Wagstaff gave the Boston Borough example, where one charitable property alone cost nearly £250,000 in subsidy losses. “The rules just seem arbitrary,” he said.
Kevin Stewart and Sean both argued central government won’t pick up the tab, because doing so would mean swallowing huge costs themselves.
Paul Howarth suggested the only real fix would be central government setting fixed funding levels for supported housing. But he warned of lobbying from housing providers against any restrictions on rents.

Rents, reform and AI

Two wider issues rounded off the discussion.

First, rising rents: ONS data shows that places like Bristol and Bath are now less affordable than London, with households spending well over 40% of income on rent. “That’s been the case for some time,” Naomi noted, with councils under pressure to manage limited stock.

Second, artificial intelligence. Gareth Morgan, dialling in from Singapore, was withering: “There’s no such thing as an AI algorithm. If you don’t understand the subject and you trust it, you’re really shafted.” The group noted Derby City’s trial of AI-style tools in adult services, and Amber Valley facing fake council reports generated by AI. “It’s more like RPAs than AI,” said Kirsty, warning that councils need to choose their processes carefully.

Wrapping up

Malcolm closed the meeting by thanking everyone for a lively debate and hinting that he’ll keep future sessions to about 45 minutes to avoid drifting too long. The group meets again next week.

The Independent Revenues & Benefits Discussion Group continues to provide a vital forum for expert analysis, shared learning, and open debate at a time of significant policy flux.

Monday Discussion Group Returns: From Reshuffles to Rents and AI